ON EVANGELICALS AND INTERFAITH COOPERATION
An Interview with Tony Campolo by Shane Claiborne
Tony Campolo is an ordained minister in the American
Baptist Church and professor emeritus of Sociology at Eastern University in St.
Davids,
Introductory Remarks (Shane Claiborne)
I grew up around people who looked like me and thought
like me, insulated from anyone that made me uncomfortable or challenged my
assumptions. I cannot remember meeting anyone Jewish or Muslim growing up, and
distinctly remember (much to my chagrin) being
swayed from dating a lovely Catholic girl because she prayed to Mary.
And then I went to
When a devout Muslim brother asked Tony and I to have this cross-generational dialogue about interreligious cooperation for an interfaith publication, we jumped on it. In an age when religious extremists of all faiths have perverted the conceptions of what our traditions teach, there seems to be another thing stirring. Many of us are refusing to allow the media and twisted images of our faith to define us. And though words like "evangelical" are up for grabs, we still consider it an important adjective to reclaim and an important community to restructure. Tony tackles many of these issues in more detail in his newest book Speaking My Mind.
Before we get started it seems critical to note that the
word "evangelion" from which we derive our words
"evangelical" and "evangelism" are ancient words that
predated Jesus. They were words Jesus takes from the imperial lexicon and spins
on their head. For instance, in 6 BC there was a saying inscribed around the
Shane Claiborne: Well, we've been asked to consider the possibility of evangelical Christians cooperating with people of different faiths. The place to begin seems to properly define what we mean by "evangelical." I offered my definition above. What's yours?
Tony Campolo: An evangelical is someone who believes the doctrines of the Apostle's Creed. That outlines exactly what we believe in detail. Secondly, an evangelical has a very high view of scripture though not necessarily inerrancy. And the third thing—we believe that salvation comes by being personally involved with a living resurrected Jesus. So I've defined evangelical in those three terms. There is a doctrinal statement, so that there is some content to what we believe. There is a source of truth, Scripture. And there is a personal relationship with Jesus.
SC: There are many evangelicals who find themselves lost amidst the current political climate. They find themselves outside the narrow issues that define conservatives and estranged from the shallow spirituality that marks liberals. Many seem to be thirsty for Christian social justice and peacemaking but cannot find a Christian community that is consistently pro-life, or that looks at war and injustice as spiritual issues.
TC: As we think about all of this we have to be aware of what has happened in this last election. Evangelicalism getting wedded to the any political party is like ice cream mixing with horse manure. It's not going to hurt the horse manure (i.e. the republican party, and I would say the Democrat Party is also horse manure so don't get the wrong idea), but it sure will mess up the ice cream.
SC: President Bush uses political and spiritual
language interchangeably, referring to the ideals of
TC: Evangelicalism is heading for a split. I think that the last election aggravated a significant minority of the evangelical community, believing that they did not want to come across as anti-gay, anti-women, anti-environment, pro war, pro capital punishment, and anti-Islam. There is going to be one segment of evangelicalism, just like there is one segment in Islam that is not going to be interested in dialogue. But there are other evangelicals who will want to talk and establish a common commitment to a goodness with Islamic people and Jewish people particularly.
SC: When I was in
TC: What has happened now is that evangelicals have
emerged from this election with an incredible triumphalism in the life of the
Christian evangelical community. They think they have a right to control
It's scary. Because if this is defined as a Christian nation, than the Muslims have every right to assume that what is happening in Iraq is Christian, and this is a regeneration of the crusades. And it's being broadcast that way by Al Jazeera and media networks in other parts of the world. That's why I am saying that evangelicalism has to be challenged. That triumphalism has to be challenged, we cannot allow that to go unchecked. And right now they own the microphone. They have the radio stations. They have the television stations. They are in fact saying this is the agenda. And we have to fight against that.
SC: Both Muslims and Christians are very evangelical in the sense of desiring others to come to faith in their God. When we talk about inter-religious cooperation, does that mean that we need to stop trying to convert each other?
TC: We don't have to give up trying to convert each other. What we have to do is show respect to one another. And to speak to each other with a sense that even if people don't convert, they are God's people, God loves them, and we do not make the judgment of who is going to heaven and who is going to hell.
I think that what we all have to do is leave judgment up to God. The Muslim community is very evangelistic, however what Muslims will not do is condemn Jews and Christians to Hell if in fact they do not accept Islam.
SC: That seems like a healthy distinction—between converting and condemning. One of the barriers seems to be the assumption that we have the truth and folks who experience things differently will all go to Hell. How do we unashamedly maintain a healthy desire for others to experience the love of God as we have experienced it without condemning others who experience God differently?
TC: Islam is much more gracious towards evangelical Christians who are faithful to the New Testament, than Christians are towards Islamic people who are faithful to the Koran. The Islamic faith will ask, "Are you faithful to the book that you have?" Mohammad was very understanding that there was great truth in Christianity. He differed with us in that he felt he had a more complete truth, and Islam would hold to that, but Mohammad contended that we would ultimately be judged in terms of the truth that we had at our disposal.
I think there are Muslim brothers and sisters who are willing to say, "You live up to the truth as you understand it. I will live up to the truth as I understand it, and we will leave it up to God on judgment day."
There is much in Christianity that would suggest exactly the same thing, particularly Romans the 2nd chapter, where the apostle Paul says "What do we say of those who do not accept the law of God," and I would add "as we understand it," "and are faithful to all the things that God calls us to do—will God not have to make room for them?" He asks that as a rhetorical question, leaving the reader with the obvious sense—"but of course." So I think that the apostle Paul would be a lot more generous towards Islamic people than most of my evangelical brothers and sisters are. If both sides are willing to live up to the truth as they perceive it and if both sides are willing to say we are not going to compromise what we believe but we are convinced that in the end the other side will have a chance to respond in a positive manner to what we believe. I think we can live together in peace and without attacking each other and without condemning each other.
Catholicism would say that at the moment of death every person is confronted in that split moment with Christ and is given the opportunity of saying yes or no. To say otherwise is to say God has got to be a pretty unfair deity, to condemn three quarters of the human race to hell without them ever having a chance.
I've got to believe that Jesus
is the only Savior but being a Christian is not the only way to be saved.
A student at
SC: When it comes to living out the Biblical vision of justice and peace, there are times when I feel like I have more in common with folks of other religions than I do with some other evangelicals. I have often found that while we may not agree theologically, we have a similar vision for how God calls us to live. Can we work together in service and action, even though we disagree theologically?
TC: I used to do this television show "Hashing It Out" with Steve Brown. One day a friend in his seminary said, "How can you be friends with people like the Campolos, especially Peggy, when you know what she believes about homosexuality?" Steve's answer was, "Peggy is wrong in the head but right in the heart. You on the other hand are right in the head and wrong in the heart. And if I have to make a choice I would much rather prefer someone who is right in the heart and wrong in the head."
That's a powerful statement but I think that's where most of us would go. Now Muslims do not believe that Jesus died on the cross. So we have a difference there. We kid ourselves if we pretend that we all believe the same thing. What we have to do is say that we believe different things. But there is so much goodness in the Islamic community, it cannot be ignored. Those who write off Islamic people are making a serious mistake. And vice-versa, Islamic people who write off Christians are making a serious mistake. But I would have to say they are less inclined to do that than we are to write them off.
SC: When I was in
TC: When it comes to what is ultimately important, the Muslim community's sense of commitment to the poor is exactly in tune with where Jesus is in the 25th chapter of Matthew. That is the description of judgment day. And if that is the description of judgment day what can I say to an Islamic brother who has fed the hungry, and clothed the naked? You say, "But he hasn't a personal relationship with Christ." I would argue with that. And I would say from a Christian perspective, in as much as you did it to the least of these you did it unto Christ. You did have a personal relationship with Christ, you just didn't know it. And Jesus himself says: "On that day there will be many people who will say, when did we have this wonderful relationship with you, we don't even know who you are. . . " "Well, you didn't know it was me, but when you did it to the least of these it was doing it to me."
SC: The Scriptures are filled with God choosing the most unlikely places to dwell. God uses the brothel owner Rahab, the pagan nation of Assyria, the adulteress king David, the zealots and tax collectors, even old Balaam's donkey as instruments of the Kingdom. It seems that Jesus is constantly extending the boundaries of grace and enlarging our vision of the Family of God, telling stories where Samaritan heretics and Syro-phoenician outsiders are invited into the Kingdom. We can see this in Peter's second conversion when he realized that God's grace is even extended to the Gentiles. Jesus' own image of the eternal banquet says that the guests the King invited are all preoccupied with the concerns of this world, and commands the servant to go into the alleys and margins to bring in whoever will come. How do we leave room for the surprises that could await us in the afterlife, without compromising our beliefs?
TC: I don't think you have to compromise as a Christian the belief that Jesus is the only Savior but what I do think we have to say is that the grace of God extends way beyond the limitations of my religious group. And I think that the Muslims have to say, as they do say, that the grace of Allah extends beyond the Islamic community. The community is supposed to be faithful to its beliefs and convictions or else it has no core. On the other hand it has got to be more loving towards those who are outside.
Our Muslim brothers and sisters can say Islam is the only true faith but we are not convinced that only Muslims enjoy salvation. I contend that there is no salvation apart from Jesus Christ, but I am not convinced that the grace of God does not go further than the Christian community.
SC: There is a discomfort when I hear Gandhi's whisper that the religions are one tree with many branches, and I can appreciate the fact that our faiths trace their roots back to the same dysfunctional family of Abraham and Sarah. But in many interreligious gatherings I have experienced the feeling that we are forced to walk on eggshells in a shallow murky spirituality that does not honor the distinctiveness of each tradition. This universalism, in its attempt to honor every tradition I often merely creates a culture where their beauty and distinctiveness are lost.
TC: I think we have to maintain our theological differences. We don't have any integrity if we don't. We end up with this mishmash in which we say, 'Well, in the end, we all believe in the same God'. Maybe we do, but we don't define God in the same way. We don't come to God in the same manner. And each of us makes exclusivist claims, and we have to recognize that. We cannot allow our theologies to separate us, and we cannot allow our theologies to get watered down lest we lose our integrity.
SC: Can you share a recent example of where we have seen inter-religious cooperation at its best, with evangelicals at the table?
TC: Jimmy Carter, who is certainly evangelical, wrote a
book called The Seed of Abraham, pointing out that Judaism, Islam, and
Christianity all trace back to Abraham and have a certain commonality between
them. I look at how Anwar Sadat, Jimmy Carter and Menachem Begin were able to
cross the line. You should know that what led up to the
SC: Community seems to form most naturally during times
of struggle. Most of the times I have felt deeply connected to people of other
faiths were during times where our survival required interdependence. I
remember when our peace team was leaving
TC: Peter Arnett used to be with CNN. I know him and I
met him in an airport in
And I did get through the lines. As I rushed towards Tel Aviv in the car, I could hear him in the back seat, as he rocked this little girl in his arms whispering, "Go faster, oh God help him to go faster. God help him to go faster. Then he starts moaning, I'm losing her! I'm losing her! Oh God I'm losing her, I'm losing her!" Peter said by the time I got to the hospital I was emotionally drained. They took the little girl into the operating room, and the two of us sat down on a bench in the waiting room, exhausted. We must have sat there a half hour, silent, exhausted from the emotion. The doctor came out and said, "I'm sorry. She's dead." This man dissolved in tears. I put my arm around him and said, I'm not married. I don't have any children. I don't know what it's like to lose a daughter. The man snapped his head back and said, "My daughter? That little girl is not my child. I'm an Israeli settler, she's a Muslim girl. But maybe the time has come for us to recognize every child as our child."
What can we learn about that kind of spirituality that can help us find common ground? No theological statements were made, no compromising beliefs, no attempts to come to a common denominator. And yet, a kind of spiritual oneness.
That's the place where we come together, in common need and common suffering, as we reach out to one another in love, leaving judgment in the hands of God, sharing out of our own faith. I mean the last thing we are asking in those times is—is your theology the same as mine?—and vice-versa. All of the sudden in the hour of suffering there is a commonality. And that's where we meet. It's in mystical spirituality and in communal mutuality that's where we come together.
SC: You also note in your book the encounter of Francis of Assisi and the Muslim Sultan during the thirteenth century, again in a moment of crisis, when they came together across major religious divides and had a mystical unity; the Sultan became known for his kindness and Francis used the Muslim horn given him to call the Christian brothers to prayer. These are human encounters that we do not naturally have when we are conditioned to see each other as enemies or outsiders. As you mention in the book, MacDonald says, “Theologians have done more to hide the gospel of Christ than any of its adversaries." Rarely are people converted by force or words, but through intimate encounters. Perhaps one of the best things we can do is stop talking with our mouths and cross the chasm between us with our lives. Maybe we will even find a mystical union of the Spirit as Francis did.
TC: Speaking of Francis, here's a wonderful story. I got
to meet the head of the Franciscan order. I met him in
It seems to me that when we listen to the Muslim mystics as they talk about Jesus and their love for Jesus, I must say, it's a lot closer to New Testament Christianity than a lot of the Christians that I hear. In other words if we are looking for common ground, can we find it in mystical spirituality, even if we cannot theologically agree, Can we pray together in such a way that we connect with a God that transcends our theological differences?
So we make sure we don't compromise what we believe. But we also make sure that in mystical spirituality we find a kind of oneness that we leave judgment of who goes to heaven and who goes to hell in the hands of God and just preach the truth as we understand it.
SC: And that is very liberating, to trust that the work of conversion is not up to us but to the Spirit, and not contingent on our own persistence, technological ingenuity, or church growth tactics. It really is liberating to leave that in the hands of the Spirit, and continue to live in a way that magnetizes people to God. Rabbi Michael Lerner says that we not only need to decode some of the violent threads of Christian thought, but we also must re-credit the ancient Jewishness of Jesus. He points to the many places that our faith traditions intersect, namely in calling us to work for justice and peace and reconciliation. Lerner says, "People of all faiths need to shape a political and social movement that reaffirms the most generous, peace-oriented, social justice-committed, and loving truths of the spiritual heritage of the human race. It is only this resurrection of hope that can save us from a new wave of global hatred."
TC: Michael and I got arrested together. A few years back, Jim Wallis organized this demonstration in opposition to the welfare bill that was passed, and forty of us got arrested. Michael Lerner chose to get arrested with us. Were you there?
SC: No, back then I still thought good Christians didn't go to jail. Now I know better.
TC: So we got arrested, and they put us all on a bus and they took us to the police station. We're all on the bus at the police station for quite a while, because they are processing us one by one. We are all giving testimonies of how this works into our Christian faith. Finally John Engel from a missionary organization called Beyond Borders looks over and says, "Michael how do you feel about all this highly evangelical talk?" Michael says, "Oh, I don't like it when I am with liberals who just compromise everything they believe to make me feel good. I think that the way we are going to have peace and brotherhood is if you go to the core of what you believe, and I go to the core of what I believe. And when we get to the core and live it with true love and true peace, there will be a coming together in spite of our differences." That is a very powerful statement. He did not feel the least offended. What offended him was liberals who try to say there are no differences between us.
SC: Mother Teresa used to say, "It is very fashionable to talk about the poor. Unfortunately, it is not so fashionable to talk to the poor." I think the same could be said today of inter-religious cooperation. Many of us talk about Jewish and Muslim folks but few of us talk to them, or have friends that do not share our faith. The fellow who asked us to do this interview is a Muslim whose friendship has been such a gift, to hear how his Muslim faith drives him to love, and to share how my faith has driven me. And I must say, the Muslims I know are very interested in seeing another face of Christianity than that which they have encountered in the popular media. And that makes for a safer world, when we remove the layers that separate us from seeing the sacredness in every person, the image of God in them. We may still want them to experience the love and grace of Jesus, but how else will that happen but from seeing it in our lives? And it makes it harder for us to simply condemn them to Hell.
TC: Rather than making theological statements, we need to tell each other our stories. Jesus would tell stories and then say, "what do you make of this story?" One more story.
In the city of
You might conclude with the that little song we always sang at communion:
Blest be the tie that binds our hearts in Christian love; The fellowship of kindred minds Is like to that above. . .
There is a fellowship of kindred minds and you can't deny it. And this is why C.S. Lewis asks the question, "Once I am connected with such a person in love: Could I possible enjoy heaven without him?"
SC: That's a good word. TC: Yes, a real good word.
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